Welcome to Das Hobby, the trading card show. Today we're going to speak in English because we got an awesome guest in our chat room and we are very happy that Spinal just joined the chat. Spinaltron is collecting since 2009 and has been deep in the world of rare sports cards with a special focus on Kobe Bryant.

With over 23,000 followers watching his journey, Spinaltron has built a reputation as both a hobby ambassador and curator, but also a huge ambassador for the Panini blockchain. We are very happy that you just joined our chat. Welcome, Spinaltron.

I think he's spot on. Did some research when I started. Cool.

Nice to be here. Thank you guys for having me. Yeah, perfect.

So let's dive into the action and maybe as a classical bar intro. All right, let's start with this. If we weren't sitting here tonight in this discord setting stuff, but instead meeting at a pub, how would you introduce yourself to me? Ah, okay.

Right. So I would say I'm kind of a sports fan, a collector, curator, and maybe a kind of asset manager of some kind. That's awesome.

Was it since the beginning or how was it developed since today? So was it first a sports fan and now asset manager or how was the development till today? Right. Yeah, it's basically evolutionary. I'm always a sports fan of almost every sports, so I watch them when I have time.

Whenever I have a chance, I even watch in person. The first thing I did when I went to the US for studying was to watch the NBA games, to catch the Kobe Bryant games. My first foray into the hobby was late 90s.

There was a art shop in Beijing. I think at the time, only a few shops in China. I learned that shop from Hoop magazine.

It's not The Hoop, but one of the basketball magazine. So I went there and opened some packs. I think all the classical ones I can remember, like EX, Fleer Brilliance, Flair Showcase, things like that, and Titanium.

And then I went to the UK for studying undergraduate. There wasn't any basketball, let alone hobby, right? But there was some bookshop called Borders, which carried Beckett. So I read some Beckett from time to time and kept the hobby on the back of my mind throughout.

And then I went to the US in 2007 for the PhD and things. And then I started collecting in 2009 after I tried to buy some comic book, couldn't find it in the store, so I went to eBay. And then I clicked, why don't I search like the Kobe Tops Chrome, found a bunch of cards and started chasing since.

Yeah. So that's basically... As a manager, it's basically, I think at this point in time, because lots of things I like are quite expensive, right? Sometimes you have to make some very hard choice to give up on some cards. Sometimes it's to give up on your own cards.

Some other times, like give up a card that is on your list, being offered somewhere privately on auction, you have to sometimes give up in order to get some other cards you really like. So yeah, it's kind of like asset management because it's optimization of your resources, right? And hope for not only for the financial side, but just try to maximize your purchasing power, try to have the best collection you ever have. Yeah.

Can possibly have. Yeah. So that's kind of, I'm not qualified as a kind of asset manager to advising people, but I haven't been sharing my thoughts in the hobby, really for everyone who asked me.

So yeah. And I must say very, very honestly, like you are one of the rare people where I really read every caption, every word. And I appreciate really the time you're putting in and writing down like the decision pathway of yourself, why this card is important, why this serial number is might be better from your point of view than another serial number.

And I really enjoy like to understand why you brought several cards. And I really get the point with this asset management stuff. Maybe it's my profession, but on the other hand, you're the real one.

Because I really love to improve my collection. Like when you are building a sculpture, it's not like a job for one week or for one year. It's like a journey you're committed to, you really like to stick to.

And I think it's pretty natural and common that you will stop at some pathway points where you need to sell a card or where you need to pass a card to achieve a better one from your personal standing. So I really, really, really love this comparison. But I think there was one point in this year where the whole thing went a bit viral regarding your account.

And from my point of view, it was the purchasing the Otani one of one with the logo. And maybe walk us through that unique moment where you're sitting there doing the auction threading or where you're just like, yeah, I'm getting this card no matter what, like what was the journey for this card? Yeah. I think when this card was announced in the top feed, right.

I immediately got very excited. I shared on my IG story, which I often do timely, time and again. So I pointed out at that time, I think at the time the 50-50 ball, the home run ball, right.

50th home run ball was already sold for 3 million plus, 3.4 or something. And also there's this Babe Ruth jersey sold for 20 some million, 24. I can't remember exactly.

So that was basically the highest selling memorabilia, right. And also the highest selling baseball, because baseball was the most collected memorabilia, right. As old as back in the late nineties, where the McGuire ball was the record breaker back then, 3 million.

So to the comic artist. So I made a post about which is more expensive, more valuable, the 50-50 the ball or the jersey. And then I mentioned the most recognizable part of the jersey was the logo man, right.

And that is putting the card. And there's an argument that because people often say, I rather prefer the whole jersey. And for us, the card collector put it into a card with a very famous, long lineage brand like Dynasty or Exquisite, right.

Although it's only a portion of the jersey, but it's the most recognizable, most important part of the jersey. I think it actually elevates the value, right. So I asked the question, which one is more expensive the ball or the logo man card? And I think I have a huge vote, almost like 1,500 votes, which is much more than the typical votes I have.

I think the ball has more, but only slightly more, not overwhelming more, like maybe 53 to 47 or something, right. So at that time, my personally also, I prefer the jersey, like the logo man card more. So I was already thinking the card actually in the ideal setting would be 3 million plus.

When it was offered in auction, I know when the first time around, usually it's the best chance, right. People don't understand it and there's no reference. And often people second guess, right.

They try to get it cheaper or like doubt whether it's worth it or something. So yeah, for me, I also didn't have 3 million as my underbid. So I was kind of, because when they went to the extended bidding, it was still at 300,000 plus BP on top.

So yeah, so there was quite a bit of expanded bidding. Um, yeah, I think I was kind of, yeah, I was, this is one of the most expensive item I bought publicly, right. So I wasn't, it wasn't like a totally, I would call like surgical, it's kind of determined, like a surgeon, very well executed.

It's, it's, it's not like that. I also have to, um, when I make a purchase, I have to think a lot of things, right. To compare this and that, like whether it makes sense.

And eventually I think I should go at least a million plus, right. So, because I think people tend to go to a round number, um, as a, like their max, right. So I go a little bit higher and, and also I was in a, in China actually doing something.

So it was in my favor because extended bidding is long. So maybe the guy, the other side, it was like 3 or 4 AM. So a little, yeah.

But if you are really want the car, you could last as long as you want. Right. But yeah.

So I think a little bit luck and as I said, people don't understand it or wasn't prepared, but there's no comp, right. There's no dynasty that is selling anywhere remotely close to that. So I got it.

But after I won it, many people told me after they think again, I think that's like no brainer prices. So they also think it's good. Goodbye.

Right. So I think it's a goodbye. And today helps announced another similar theme, right.

Also black dynasty also from the, basically the game four of the national conference, um, conference finals. Right. And, um, yeah, 10 strikeout three home run game.

Um, so basically exact same design, right. A little bit extra. So basically this card started off a, uh, trend or a franchise in tops, right.

Whenever someone has a crazy game, they will do something like this. So that makes this card even more special. It's kind of like the first in line for something that will do like for next five to 10 years.

So it's, yeah, I think it's good. Goodbye. Yeah.

So, so it's like a very natural aim to, to, to bear, to, to pair both cards. Yeah. I don't know.

I mean, yeah, if I have unlimited budget, probably, but I think it's good to have other people to also to enjoy it. Right. So that it's more like, I think if you have everything, I always said this, I have, I mean, a discord here and there, I always say like, if you have everything in, in the market share, you probably don't have anything.

Right. Because there's no comp, no, no activity visibility. So yeah.

We'll have to be mindful of that also. So, yeah. But, uh, but I really got your point.

Like, this is something that I I've observed in the past, like when a card hits an auction for the first time without any comms, the chance are pretty high that you make very good steel on the card sometimes because people are tending to search for comms, trying to compare it. And, but there are, there are always cards out there. You, you are not able to compare with something similar because they are just unique from my point of view.

So, um, very, very nice move, but how does it feel to wake up when you bought the card and realize, wow, the whole sports card bubble is talking about my purchase. Did your DMs explode or was how they are? Yeah. I didn't announce right away because I need to get things ready, right.

To pay for it. Once I paid for it, like maybe a week later, I think I kind of make a post really on post. Then I got a lot of shares, a lot of comments.

Yeah. It's pretty cool. It's always nice to, because you don't have this moment too much, right.

During our collecting, like you have a big card, people like come and share this moment and make some comments. That's yeah. It's very rare, probably only very limited times you can have that.

So I try to enjoy as much as I can answer everybody's comment. I have to say, I liked very much the way, how you prepare to buy this card, how to, to check, um, about this card about, um, yeah, because you said there's no other competitive price or how you can compare this price with this card. And I like it very much.

And I think, um, I hope that, uh, also for small, it's also valid for every card. It's not just for this card. It's also for every card.

So, yeah. Um, and I'd like to, that you also, and Alex actually do that the same way he, um, know about everything about the card. So not just, it's a cool card.

It looks nice, but also it's the first card, uh, of this way. And that's also kind of history of the card. And, um, so we, we deep insights about this card.

So I like it very much. I have to say it's, it's very interesting, very, very takeaways for me as well. Well, I think it's very important, like from my point of view, when you, when you are real collector, like maybe a bit more purpose driven, I would say, then you understand the story behind the card, like, and that's not only for the big high end value cards, like you can do it with the mid range too.

Like, um, there was this tennis set royalty by, by tops with, um, several different Boris Becker pictures on it. And they never wrote, wrote on the bag, what was the picture linked to, to which tournament. And so I did like photo checks and uploaded those photos.

And then we realized, okay, they put like the first picture of his first Wimbledon victory on this card, the first US open win on this card. I really love this one, or I got this, uh, similar experience today, Marcos with my Schweinsteiger card, like there was a card out noir, um, with the DFB patch on it, and you can see the German flag and, but it doesn't match to the motive on the card, but it was much better because it was a game worn Jersey from his world cup victory. It was like, awesome to understand.

Okay. What's like the link between the card and the motive. And yeah, I'm very nerdy.

And I tried to push Marcos in this direction. Yeah. I think that part is actually the value unlock, right? Yeah.

It's basically from the value you bought to the value. It would be is the, you, you do some research, you unlock certain hidden, um, significance, right? It could be, it's the first appearance of certain configurations, right? That's very important because certain configuration becomes a mainstay in certain products, right? Becomes a huge market cap, but the first time it appears, it should be very important. And yeah, there's so many direction you can go for a given card.

Like, as you said, like for the match, the photo, whether it has some context, right. If it's important game or something, if it's related to the memorabilia enclosed, right. Yeah.

So I have a messy card, for example, which looks just like any other message to practice trooper, Raptor auto. But if I do some research, I found, um, it's the first time they do top scrum for the club. And also the celebration post was from game where Messi scored the first goal against the Buffon who always managed to define his goal for the longest time.

So that, that was making the card extra special. So it's something like this, right? Definitely goes from not knowing that to the car value definitely appreciates. Yeah.

I think that's, that's for me sometimes the most, most fun part to understand the value and the context. Like we had this Marcos with my messy autograph card, like Messi was supposed to sign the card in 2019 and 2019 was basically one of his top three seasons and he signed the cards, but he sent it back three years later in 2022 and the year where he won the world cup. And so I really like this connection between the printing, printing age on the card, but then with the age on the slab.

Um, and, uh, I've discussed this with Marcos on our way through the stadium, like, like a university professor, listen, Marcus, that's an awesome card. And he was like, okay, can we go into the stadium right now, please? I was like, no, you have to listen. It's very important, but maybe to, to understand you're, you're doing a bit better.

We see sports cards on your profile. We see NFTs on your profile, but what does SpinoTron do when he's not checking Panini blockchain sports card? Is there any life outside the hobby or? Oh, yeah. So right.

I, I have a huge screen time, almost like a chance. So it's definitely a lot of time to spend on. Um, so basically I have this role of a collector curator, right? I think collecting party is important because I try to have one of the most unique, um, one of the most well-thought crafted PC.

So I can share my passion and try to capture the what's the hobby has to offer. Yeah. On the other hand, I think the curator part is also important because you want to, um, because for certain cards, there's some magic to it, right? I think you want to convey that.

And there's some feeling to the card, which is, uh, your first time you saw it, you have certain feeling you want to, and that always stick to the card. You want to capture that. So it's, and also, also like try to tell the hobby history, tell the, um, to, to tell, talk about the card in a context, right.

Throughout the, the run of the releases or compare with different sports or different competitors in terms of the similar attributes. Yeah. So that part is also important.

I think that we have no shortage of good collectors, but most of them are behind the scene. They want to be discreet. And we also have a no shortage of a good salesman, right.

To help, uh, promote a card, but it's a very, um, kind of market driven, right. When this card is made available, it was like a promotion advertisement. It's not a systematic.

It's more like, um, basically a marketing, right. And not many people who can do both. Well, right.

You, you know, um, you, you can be a good museum curator, but you also put the knowledge to the action, right. You actually curate a kind of almost like a world-class kind of museum, museum worth the kind of collection. Right.

So I think those hobby curators should be, um, a top click collector aim for, right. You're not only, uh, craft your cultivate your PC, but also try to bring the hobby to a upper level, right. Try to make everyone win.

Right. So that's, so that's what I want to mention this is because to be a curator, you have to always think about things to make posts. So social media content is one of my daily kind of, um, routine almost like, but it's fun, right.

Although I write a lot, but when I wrote it, it's automatic. It's come to me very quickly. I have some points.

I come cover them. It's almost like the word limits. So it's, uh, that that's part of my daily life, but I also have a, uh, Chihuahua.

I have to walk like, uh, 45 minutes, two times. Um, and also I take care of my kids, um, send them to school, send off them to school, to the, to the nearby station. Sometimes talk about a little bit of their like homework, try to do some Olympiad and stuff.

I try to, because I come from a technical background, right. So I know certain things I try to, uh, like basically try to have them to be at least interested in certain technical or, um, for example, the math more fundamental, more for principle subject. We want them to be on top of those a little bit also.

And also, uh, my, my wife likes to travel around the world. So I also, um, try to enjoy that when that happens, try to learn about the history, try to get some inspiration for my post. So that's more or less it.

And I spend a lot of time on the discord in the, in my discord and also in the Panini blockchain discord, try to like, yeah, chat about sports, about collecting because people there, uh, Panini blockchain is basically a digital, right. Digital, um, offering there's community there. It's integral part of the NFT community.

Many people don't have the physical background. So I have to tell them why, for example, prism is better than other things. Why base is better than insert things like that.

Right. So, yeah, so that's my, my, basically my daily, daily life. It can get a very intense one during my, uh, chasing a card because the, there are so many frictions involved, like try to secure a card.

Right. So that, that's take a lot of time. So interesting.

Could you, how's, um, um, how you come because you said you're quite long in the physical card collector. How was this? Is it because of your background of technical wise that you have also interest in this blockchain part or how was it coming to? Oh, okay. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm, I'm always, I'm always interested in the new things, right? Like something completely new, completely like new trends, but I'm also, um, uh, I also kind of try to spot something that is fundamentals. It's not like a fad, not like a, just crazy hype, which dies away very quickly.

So I came across blockchain or NFT, um, I think in two different ways. First time is because I close, uh, collected plenty closely, right? He was, it was the, the exclusively, the only licensed brand for basketball for the last like 16 years plus. So when in 2020, they introduced the blockchain through physical like offering, right? They offer physical cards, but you have to win it on the blockchain auction.

That's auction. It's a Dutch option because it goes down from a hundred thousand down to whatever price it was, uh, purchased. It's good that because it's kind of like, you are competing with the imaginary kind of enemy, right? But the price action is basically one guy.

It's not the two guys. It's appropriate for a new, um, like new world, right? Because it's not well understood. Nobody knows like how many people can have the same understanding, right? The English auction will probably end the low for certain things.

So the Dutch auction was the way they introduced certain very nice physical cards, like logo man on a national treasure or local man on a prison brand, which has never happened elsewhere in the hobby, except on the blockchain. We will win it. You have the blockchain version and, um, the goal I think for them was to onboard or bring some physical collector into this ecosystem, right? Early on.

And then they develop this pact, native blocking pack. Then they become a bona fide hobby because you just buy the packs open, blind packs with the odds, and you can sell the packs and can sell the cards. So once that happens, um, that was like in the middle of 2021, almost 1.5 years later, um, um, then become the main way to distribute the cards.

Uh, I also was in FTE in the mean FTE in early 2021. I bought a Jordan card for 2.3 thousand in 2010. And I sold it for like, uh, 120K, uh, in 2021, early in January.

That was basically one of the first, uh, absolutely peak right during the COVID era. Sorry. So I basically give, sorry, let me drink something.

So I basically gave this proceed to my wife to invest in certain art FTE. And she, she was very interested in that. And I was also around, so I was already exposed to the proper FTE on the Ethereum in the early 2021.

So, so I know, I understand that the native FTE and also understand the licensed sports FTE from the blockchain, the Panini blockchain. Yeah. So that was a pretty natural progression.

Okay. Yeah. And I'm pretty interesting.

It's pretty interesting that, that TOPS is trying to create something similar. They just announced like, like TOPS basketball stuff, but there were no deeper information regarding the technology. Like I know that Panini is aiming to, to, to get the NFTs on OpenSea or something.

And from my point of view, that's a completely wide move, um, that you're not only able to, to buy the NFT cards in the app, you can buy it on like NFT marketplaces. So that's pretty great to see this progression on the Panini side, but also worrying that my TOPS is missing out the train on this one. Um, but more in general, when it comes to, I would say purpose driven and meaningful collecting, it's all about choices, I would say, but you can't buy everything.

Yeah. You, you, you, you mentioned earlier. Um, so what's your processes and how do you decide which player or cards do you want to buy or to invest in as a more analytic approach or gut feeling or both, or what's like the process behind? Yeah.

So, um, there has to be a process where you, from not caring or knowing about a player, right. Or card to activity, looking at this player, watching his highlights stats and checking out what's the best card he has and available on the market. So there's a, such a discovery process.

I think from my experience, whenever I do that, I should just buy some cards and usually at a low price. Um, but once you kind of convince yourself, um, this player is good player. Um, so it's has the potential and, or it's well proven or whatever.

Um, then I think the best way is always try to get, um, the best card or like one of the big cards, because that's always age really well compared to just some exposure of the player through some, some cards you can get, right. The cheapest or the, because even the best card at a given time, it might not be the best you can get. Um, so the best, uh, I think for different risk appetite or budget level, maybe, um, at least get one card that, that is within your reach.

That is best within that reach. Right. I think that always think quality is better than, uh, a quantity and also quality in terms of the truly unique, right? Like the, the one we just described have some, uh, very strong, uh, rarity attributes.

It's not just a grid rarity, but actually a true rarity because we're in an era where there are so many, like all the patch cards, so many one of ones, so many, so many logo mass, so many super fractures. So, so even for those, you have to try to get one of the better ones, right? Yeah. For example, um, you should be, I mean, at least for me, I need to look at all the possible ones, right? When I make a purchase, I know how many, uh, cards of this type exists so far.

And, um, and also what this card is among that mix, right? It is one of one, but is it even a one of one within the bigger picture? Like one of in terms of first appearance or only appearance or, uh, for example, certain player is more well known with a team, right? And he has only, uh, in that team, only one local man. Right. So that's better than a generic one.

So yeah. So those kinds of considerations, um, but for certain, I mean, I understand different player, different, um, like target range, right. Has different, um, like selections or the pool to through the problem.

But I think even for the best player, uh, very good card attributes, you still can find a very affordable range. You just have to be a little bit more. Um, you can obviously cannot choose absolutely best of like the best, right? The, those of you facing the, the fear is the competition.

Even, even the, the, the most potent buyer couldn't keep buying those, right. Only by like one or two in a while. But for example, like, um, I think until recently for Otani, like local man, although it's fairly affordable, like maybe not like the past few months, but like one year ago, it's fairly affordable.

Like, yeah. So maybe you can also translate from other sports. Um, if you buy messy car last year, this year, probably 10 X or like 20 X, right.

So this kind of thing, um, yeah. So we have like knowledge of cross the sports and also we know a certain players. I mean, we, we, we, we have basically, um, a lot of data, a lot of trends, which is happening in the past, right.

Which you can borrow or tap into. For example, when a player retires, what's the price movement is like, right. When a player won a championship, but somehow didn't, uh, meet the expectation, right.

Didn't win the championship the way he should have won, right. How the price that performs and you can borrow from other sports, other player and try to like apply to the current situation. I think that can be helpful.

Yeah. It's, it's, it's quite a nuanced because there are certain competing, um, viewpoints, right. There are people think about like, let's sell at the top, right.

You can buy back later cheaper, but there are also times where they think only when the moment is the best, you can have the full availability of the top cards, right. You buy it. If you believe the player has further upsides, right.

That's also a good time to buy. So yeah, there's the hobby is good that because every different people have different positions and viewpoints, right. So everyone can win the guy who sold at top one, but the guy who bought the best card at the most available situation is also a winner.

Right. So it's, it's cool. I think so.

Yeah. I don't know whether I answered the question fully, but yeah, that's what I, that's completely right. And you just mentioned the soccer market, I would say it was like a huge blow up, especially in this year, like where Messi and Syrah Zim cards went up like crazy, um, pretty similar to the COVID time when it comes to percentages.

But where do you see the soccer market right now? Is it like at the peak for the moment, it's like a bubble, or do you, do you see it more like, um, logical next step when it comes to evolving, because there's something that we are asking ourselves nearly every day, like right now, no, like the peak, or are there any potential upsides when it comes to the world cup? Right. Um, I think there are certain, yeah, I think there are so many things at play, right? First of all, the soccer's catalog is very limited. For example, the flawless only appears in one year.

Right. So that's completely in a big contrast to the basketball and they have like 10 plus years. Yes.

That's why the, some prices like went for like really high. Um, and also there's price triggers, right? There's the world cup around, um, also the last appearance of, uh, Messi, possibly Ronaldo, right? Yeah. Ronaldo is the two years older, probably definitely the last appearance.

Um, so yeah. So, but also, uh, because the world cup is basically a kind of team sports, right? You cannot really make it on your own, but if you did a, but it's also a star making moment, right? If you have crazy performance, there are so many people watching. So that's also important.

Um, another factor is that, um, there are, there have been so many attempts to bring soccer to the U S to become a mainstream sports, right. And time and again in the past and so far not successful. Uh, but recently maybe through Yamaul, like a lot of people are watching his game.

Uh, and also the world cup is in the U S and nearby, right? So that also adds much more, um, chance that it could be a more permanent maybe this time it happens like the conversion happens. And also there's a, um, I think upside lies in here, uh, because soccer is obviously the largest fan base, right. In the world, probably, I don't know, like three to 5 billion have some modest interest in soccer.

Um, but the soccer, uh, memorabilia or collectible buyer are not the strongest so far. Right. So there's this like from addressable market to the, to the, like the potential buyer, there's this, um, potential there.

Um, and there's some emergence of big collectors in soccer. Some come from basketball and some just the new collector who came in. And there are people like basically try to apply the goat logic, right.

They see the Brady, the Jordan, the Kobe. Um, yeah, the prices and, uh, yeah, the price action and they want to basically front run the, in the messy world, in the Ronaldo world. Right.

And they see the, the, the rookie speculation for like, um, Jaden for a park for when B maybe they also try to do for your mall and for other new guys. So, yeah, so there's some of that also, I think one of the big thing to prevent a, like a big price jump to become a bubble is that the big buyer have a bit of, um, long-term view, right. So they are not buying, try to selling during the World Cup or before the World Cup.

And if there are certain regression in price, they don't panic or try to get out like, yeah, in some way, I think most of the big buyer I've seen, like the, for example, the messy buyer, there are several prominent ones. They are thinking here for the long-term. So that makes the bubble talk a little bit, maybe, uh, yeah, like overheated, probably not that divide.

Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty interesting compared to basketball.

You said there's the World Cup in US and, um, I think we, in, in, especially in Europe, the soccer market is, is going hyped and especially with Jamal and the prices are going too, too deep. If you have a crystal ball, uh, in front of you, what do you think in five, five years, the sports cards market look like, uh, especially also in comparison with the other leagues, the big leagues, what do you think from, from your point? Right. Um, yeah, I think, as I mentioned before, you can look into the, look back in the history, right.

To get some, get some insight. For example, in the nineties, um, if you look at basketball, baseball and football, right. The catalog, I'm almost the same.

They all have PMG. They all have credentials. They all have those ones, those iconic sets, right.

Rubies and other stuff. But, uh, only the basketball was selling right. Other sports, maybe one or two guys are selling, but others are not.

Um, but during that remains true. When I entered this, like the scene in 2009, I was actually focused on nineties most of the time, right? Like I think in baseball was like almost one 50th of the basketball. So really small percentage.

Um, but recently, if you look at the price, it's, it's similar, right? It's maybe one half or one third, or sometimes the same. For example, Griffey credential sells 200,000, right. Similar to Rodman.

Rodman was rare, which also helped the price. So, um, so there's definitely a chance. So from that perspective, you shouldn't, um, have your imagination only kind of tapped by the temporary situation, right? Because you can never, uh, like foresee, um, several years down the road, especially, uh, three to five years more, because that was a completely different market condition.

Um, and also if you look at a football, like Brady price back in 2016, right. It's really cheap, like probably, uh, 3% of current price. Right.

So there's, um, I think the COVID really helps Brady's prices, but also a couple of years before. So, uh, right now those prices still remains right. Very popular.

Um, I have this theory of a commodity cards and coughing cards, right? I don't know. You guys know it. So basically the, the coughing cards are the ones that we talked about, right? The super rare, um, first appearance, very significant.

The collector really want it right. They, once they have it, that's it, that's their achievement coughing as, as like party in the coughing as a displacement of your achievement, but also until hold on to the long, long time commodity cars is like always, it's also a good term because the card is like commodity, which means it's desired. It's actually equivalent.

It's, um, there are certain recognizability come with it, right? Always available, always treatable. The price always know at a given time, but when you are having liquidity problem, when you have another thing to chase, you have to, the first thing to go, right? Because you can always have it back. It's highly replaceable.

So if you, um, look at the commodity card, the Brady, like the price didn't cover recover too much from the COVID price. But if you look at the coughing cards, the price always have been growing, right? Sometimes like drastically increasing. For example, recently some pretty, uh, prison one of one sold a really high, um, couple one, one sold really high privately.

I know close to million level range or over. Um, but that wasn't, that wasn't the case even during the COVID, right? But if you look at the championship ticket, BGS nine or PSA, like eight with nine autos, things like that, the price now is nowhere near the COVID price, right? So that's the commodity card. Um, right.

So if you look at those and you apply to soccer, I think the coughing card of the goats or the, the player who are young and promising, like, uh, let me, um, all, um, if he can still healthy and stay, stay like motivated, because I think people say he has a greater motor, which means he's very driven. He wanted to be great, right? He wanted to be messy level. And yeah, although he's like doing teenager things, but he's very, um, working very hard.

You can see on the court, he's very special, right? Very magical. Um, and he has still like free price triggers, right? The, the UCL, um, finals or championship, uh, the bull and door or other like crazy achievements and the world cup, right. Making for the elimination game, maybe all even winning.

So any of those will trigger the price to the next level. Um, also the way he wins, right. I think that's also important winning, but also the way he wins, for example, the old honey winning, uh, championship last year and this year is completely different, right.

So the way, uh, also the Curry winning, um, uh, the NBA finals, right. Against a, uh, like gas, the Celtics or the Curry winning, um, in the Olympics, right. With those crazy shots, it's completely different also.

So yeah, that also plays a part. So I, I believe, um, and also one part is I think panini will use soccer as their main IP, right. The main product.

So that they will spend a lot of time and making good products over there. So the soccer offering could be more. So there'll be like, only if you have a more, um, selection, it can scale right in, in the user base, in the price.

Um, so that would be better. And also the world cup coming, right. I think it will pave the way for the next, because we're still enjoying, uh, the sales, the chase from the 2022 world cup.

Right. I think this world cup will have a few, like, uh, carry over years also. And there'll, there'll also be flawless.

There'll be another flawless. Um, I think your mom will be there, uh, in the chase in the dynasty next year. And there's also some young guys who are already promising, like, uh, also us has a guy, right.

Kevin, uh, Kevin Sullivan. Yeah. And, but it's still too young.

So, yeah. So the, I think I believe in, because even for myself as a collector of basketball and blockchain, I'm still starting to get more messy caramel or another card. And on the blockchain side, I'm also very kind of surgical to get the top, like your mall card, the seven card as well.

Right. I believe it will be a big, big, um, part of the hobby because if I went to a show, I went to several show recently. In Asia, in, um, in Dubai, poker is basically the second popular, right.

Right after basketball. So it has to grow. It will be there for sure.

I'm very bullish in that direction, but only digital or also physical. So because you said, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Physical also. Yeah.

Because I'm adding a lot of physical soccer cards also. Yeah. Because it's so freaking rare sometimes, like try to find an on-card autograph by Pele or especially by, by, by, uh, by Maradona.

It's crazy tricky. Like those two guys didn't, didn't sign a lot. You're going to see a lot of stickers autograph when it comes to Maradona, especially at Pele.

But there are only a few series where Pele really signed on-card and that's so, so, so rare. And this is something that you mentioned earlier, Spano, like when you measure the soccer market, but the basketball market, like it's, it's, you only got like one or two series with on-card autographs by Messi or Ronaldo. And so, so I think that will, that will have the, the market to stay bullish when it comes to soccer cards.

And especially when you're talking about, I mean, Jamal, I was preaching in my streams, like buy this freaking marks of excellence cards. It's the only card with an on-card signature. Everybody was like, no, I'm going for the finest one or for the Chrome one with the sticker auto.

I was not, that's completely nonsense. Just buy the marks of excellence one with the only on-card signature on it. And now like the price blows up.

And I think sometimes it's always about rarity and, and, and storytelling. And I'm pretty keen to see the future when it comes to, to soccer, especially next year with the World Cup with Kevin Sullivan, like this guy is 16 years old and I've bought a few today, to be honest, because there are only a few autographs out there and Obsidian, for example, and something. So I really, really love the soccer mark, but we got a very simple and honest question by a viewer when it comes to your collection.

And I'm aware of the fact that you going to have like some cards in your vault, et cetera, PP, but where do you store your cards? Do you got like a suitcase at home? Like what, what the procedure? Yeah. Let me, before that, can I just add a extra, um, like just to follow up what you said, right. Obviously on-card is better than sticker, right.

From a conventional wisdom. Right. But a one shouldn't dismiss sticker as a like categorical.

No. Right. Because for example, if you don't like, there are certain, like the high-selling cards, that's a sticker auto, one of one.

And if you have a chance of buying it and because of this kind of mental block, right. You miss out the chance. And also one part of the sticker auto is because the way the hobby goes, right.

It's almost like the company try to early invest in the talent, right. So they, they come to this young guy who is no namer and sign a bunch of sticker autos, like hundreds. And then when the guy becomes famous, the price is different or he's refused to sign.

Right. So that's basically the car company's ways to get their inventory. And also there's a difference between auto signed when the guy was still upcoming and, and also the auto when the guy's already famous, right.

You use, I think the early one, I think it's more special to me at least. So, and also there are certain like configuration, like Prism or Topscrum, that are just like sticker auto, right. That's like the best card of the player.

It's just come with that. So it's, and the hobby is well embraced for it. So, yeah, I think we recently see some picture of guys signing autographs without touching any cards or Jersey or poster, but for the signing, the sticker, you have to really put your fingers on the sticker and sign really carefully.

And the sticker attached to the card will be part of the car. Right. So the player technically touch the card also.

So, yeah, I think, I think the sticker it's also like a taboo or the I've got a word, but I think it's a little overblown. Right. But yeah, I think this viewpoint is also important to at least to, to bring about, I think in this occasion, it's good to insert there back to the question regarding where I store my card.

I think it's, it had to be like, like basically the convenience, right? When I was in the U S I put it in the bank, right? When I move around some, I still stay in the bank or I bring some with me. And so when I settled in a new city, I put it in the, in the bank of that city, it's very hard to get the, like the locker or the storage deposit box. You have to like apply, you have to wait so that I don't want to close them.

Even if sometimes they don't have much in it. But now we have like the voting like platform, right? The PSA vault, the auto vaults and PRCC vaults, right. The phonetic collect and my friends ship my card also have like vaults.

So I have, I think I have parsing like many of those. Right. So so it's kind of decentralized a little bit.

Right. So it's, it's not by, by, by like design, but it's just the convenience or the, as I move around during my work and yeah. So as I settled down, so that's how they kind of distributed, but I can always access them.

Right. I know where things are, so you have to be really organized. I sometimes, I really want to, because I have like maybe 34 TITM, Immaculate RPA, two rookie.

I want to put them together to take a picture. Right. But half of them are here, half of them are to ship my cards.

So I kind of cannot take that picture. So it's not always convenient. Yeah.

So, so then you got, how do you showcase the cards to yourself? Do you look at everything as a picture on your phone or do you get like a digital frame or, because I'm, I like the guy I love to go once a month to the bank, putting out my suitcase and sitting there alone in the dark on my couch and looking at my cards and then bringing them back on the other day because I enjoy it like a lot. But how do you showcase the cards to yourself then when everybody's like in the wards and spread around? Right. Yeah.

I think basically I have a folders of photos in it. Right. And also I've put them on my Instagram.

So it's, I mostly listen to my Instagram music, right? I like those music and check the picture there. But sometimes I do look, go to the bank and check the cards. Sometimes I need to like sell a card or add another card into it.

So I got to check out all the cards. Yeah. Sometimes it doesn't have like a museum feel to it.

Right. You look at a very nice collection, you work very hard to build. So yeah, I think those are very cool.

But I think, I think the touching card is a little bit overrated. Right. If for a diehard, a physical collector, if he's being a like cautious, right.

He should put the cards in the safe. Right. And also he shouldn't display it in the sunlight and he shouldn't overhandle it.

Right. Like sleeping with it or carry it everywhere he goes. That will damage the card.

So, and even in the safe, I think of the lifetime of all the minutes added together, you're holding it. It's very small, right. Compared to the total duration of the ownership.

So yeah, it's a little overblown, I think. But yeah, holding the card is kind of, can be very special for sure. But I fully understand this with this collection.

So I'm 100% understanding. How do you see, because there's, because you mentioned now digital and you said a little bit overrated to touch them. There's a lot of new digital packs, digital mystery packs offers now on web.

How do you see this? Because then you can buy these mystery packs online. You didn't touch the card, but you have it maybe in your vault stored. Is that a trend you can understand? You see critical or how do you see that? Okay.

Yeah. I think, I think the, I think it's part of the illusion, right. Basically when the part prices go, like the boxes or cases price go too high, right.

People have to basically group break. Otherwise a personal case will be too risky, right. The return isn't so great.

So that kind of makes the online stream industry popular, right. The light breaking, but then the return is still not great. And a single product can be boring, right.

So people then go to shows to collect those cards, put into the mystery pack, right. Different repacks. So that offers better returns and, and also selection, right.

Why selection? And there are some chase, but there's also discussion about whether it's a good product to chase because the repack can be unethical, right. It could be like overblown or not the best value, right. Although it's advertised so, and then for live stream or repack or whatever, the point is you buy it and you can hit something and then you have to sell it, right.

Sometimes they offer buybacks, sometimes you don't. And the entire process can be also a little bit based on the host, right. And also, so the digital version, basically the same, but more like you can instantly kind of buy back, right.

So it's, there are certain people who like the chase a little bit like gambling. When they buy something and they don't like it, they just put it back and you add a little bit more money and to buy another pack, right. Try to chase the chase.

Sometimes the chase isn't that chasable, right. It's not that crazy. Right.

And also, I think they also got inspiration from the true, the blockchain packs, right. Where the assets is the, the, the, the one you are kind of opening it's fully on chain and with provenance and everything is, that's the way it is. That's a true asset.

Here, the digital repack, they have underlying asset, right. So there's no onboarding needed. There's no education needed, right.

People get kind of getting the physical card, but the friction is minimized, right. So that's how it comes about. But I still think it's, it's a little bit borderline towards gambling aspect, right.

Less collecting, a little bit hit and miss. And also, it's not the best way to invest or royal collection, right. You cannot leave it to the chance or to the taste of those guys who go to the show to buy a bunch of tables, right.

Without much like selection, right. It's by nature is, it wouldn't be the optimization of the fund or or the things out there. Right.

And also I think the data could be misleading. For example, certain repacks people or the platform or the company, they will say they have a huge data, right. Every month they do such a volume, but when you do the buybacks, the volume is like overrated, right.

For example, if you always do 80% buyback, right. And let's assume you can put everything same as the pack value, right. You open a 200 pack, you get 200 cards out of it.

You get a buyback offer for 80% of it. Right. And then you accept the buyback and then you put a little money like out and do another pack.

Right. So you basically, so you add all the things up together. And I think basically 200 spending will account for like 200, like bracket, like a one times 0.8 plus 0.8 squared.

So it's like 200 over one minus 0.8 is kind of like 1000. Right. So you spend, you spend, basically what I'm saying is you spend the 200, but on their balance sheet, it's 1000.

Right. So it's a little bit misleading. There's a factor there.

So if you divide it by five, it's not remarkable at all, but they could use this to fundraise to get more investment in. So it's, yeah, it's almost like hack, right. In all sorts of ways.

Yeah. I don't know. I think it's better to, to open the real, the licensed carefully designed by the, like the car company, which are 65 years in business, right.

Those really desirable brands, you open those packs or those packs itself, assets also, right. You should have think of packs as a way to get, tap into all the possible cars, right. With the probability without have to invest in certain player or the parallels, but also because it's like a blind pack, it has the liquidity.

There are people who want to open it. Right. So it's also a form of investment on, on the true blockchain.

Right. So it's, I think that's better than those repacks. It's just my personal preference.